For generations, a great many Americans have sat down to dinner expecting to see more or less of the same thing: meat, potato, vegetable, bread. These days, it’s not nearly so simple. What you’ll see on any given table, and on any individual plate, depends in large part on how the eaters in question define their food ideology.
Today, popular eating styles vary — from hardcore vegan to anything-goes omnivore — and it’s not all that unusual for such differences to exist within the same family or tightly knit social group.
Sometimes that coexistence is harmonious; other times, not so much. That’s because eating is an intensely personal act, and one’s food choices might be based on anything from cultural and religious traditions to social norms, ethical and environmental concerns, nutritional principles, and aesthetic preferences.
Proponents of divergent food traditions have been known to defend them passionately and promote them with an almost religious zeal. And nowhere is this more evident than among advocates of two inherently different approaches to eating: veganism and the Paleolithic (Paleo for short) diet.
Unlike vegetarians, who may consume eggs and dairy, vegans eat only plant-based foods — eschewing any animal products. “Paleos” typically embrace foods that hearken back to what our hunter-gatherer ancestors ate — such as grass-fed meat, wild-caught fish, roots, tubers, veggies and, to some extent, fruits — while avoiding grains, legumes, sugars, processed foods, dairy (for the most part) and most anything else that did not exist pre-agriculture.
The clash between vegans and Paleos has escalated recently, with the release of dozens of books, blogs and documentary films making a case for one model or the other. Too often, though, the relative benefits and liabilities have been overshadowed by emotionally charged arguments and oversimplified science.
To better understand the precepts of each camp, we invited advocates from both sides to share their perspectives in a civil exchange. We also brought in a panel of well-informed medical and nutritional experts to help moderate.
Read on to discover how these two groups differ, what they have in common, and what makes sense for you. Who knows? You might take some tips from each camp. As integrative doc Mark Hyman, MD, puts it, “If you look at the science, there’s a lot of evidence for both sides. Paleo and vegan diets are not, in many respects, mutually exclusive.”
Vegans believe animal products cause chronic disease and that a diet high in veggies, fruits and grains is best. Paleos like veggies, too, but think that grass-fed and wild meats are important for health, and they believe grains, starches and sugars are the real health-killers. Who’s right? Read on — then decide for yourself.
Paleo Advocates
Nora Gedgaudas is a certified nutritional therapist and neurofeedback specialist in private practice in Portland, Ore. She’s the author of Primal Body, Primal Mind: Beyond the Paleo Diet for Total Health and a Longer Life (Healing Arts Press, 2011).
Robb Wolf is a former biochemical researcher who studied under Paleo-pioneer Loren Cordain. Wolf is the author of the New York Times bestseller The Paleo Solution: The Original Human Diet (Victory Belt Publishing, 2010).
Lierre Keith is a writer, small farmer and environmental activist. Her book, The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability (PM Press, 2009), has been called “the most important ecological book of this generation.”
Vegan Advocates
Brendan Brazier is a former professional Ironman triathlete and the creator of an award-winning line of vegan nutritional products. Brazier details his plant-based diet advice in Thrive Foods: 200 Plant-Based Recipes for Peak Health (Da Capo, 2011).
Kris Carr is a New York Times best-selling author, wellness coach and creator of CrazySexyLife.com. Carr is also the creator of the inspirational documentary Crazy Sexy Cancer. Her latest book is Crazy Sexy Diet: Eat Your Veggies, Ignite Your Spark, and Live Like You Mean It! (Skirt!, 2011).
John McDougall, MD, is a board-certified internist and founder of the McDougall Program, a 10-day residential wellness program in Santa Rosa, Calif. McDougall’s latest book, coauthored with his wife, Mary, is The Starch Solution: Eat the Foods You Love, Regain Your Health, and Lose the Weight for Good! (Rodale Books, 2012).
Moderators
Joel Fuhrman, MD, is a family physician and nutritional researcher who specializes in preventing and reversing disease primarily through diet. He’s the author of several books, including Eat to Live: the Amazing Nutrient-Rich Program for Fast and Sustained Weight Loss (Little, Brown and Company, 2011).
Mark Hyman, MD, is a family physician, the author of four New York Times bestsellers, and chairman of the Institute for Functional Medicine. His latest book is The Blood Sugar Solution: The UltraHealthy Program for Losing Weight, Preventing Disease, and Feeling Great Now! (Little, Brown and Company, 2012).
Frank Lipman, MD, practices internal medicine with additional training in acupuncture, Chinese medicine, functional medicine, meditation and yoga. The founder and director of Eleven-Eleven Wellness Center in New York City, Lipman’s most recent book is Revive: Stop Feeling Spent and Start Living Again (Touchstone, 2009).
On Eating Animals
The Paleos Say . . .
Lierre Keith — “A Paleo diet is based on what humans and our ancestral progenitors ate. That would have been meat, especially the nutrient-dense organ meats and fat. It also would have included nuts, edible greens and some seasonal fruit. Wild meat is rich in omega-3 fatty acids and has a very different nutritional profile than factory-farmed, grain-fed meat, which is pro-inflammatory. Most Paleo people go to great lengths to get grass-fed ruminants, wild-caught fish or hunted meat rather than eat inhumanely raised factory-farmed meat.”
Nora Gedgaudas — “I personally have worked on behalf of animals for a good part of my life and am deeply passionate about suffering. I see nothing in any part of the way I eat that is incompatible with any of it. There is a cycle of life (and death) of which we all are a part, and my way of eating honors that. I will also add that the health of any meat is directly related to the health of the animal that that meat came from. Any meat from an animal fed foods unnatural to it (i.e., grains and other substances commonly used as filler), shot full of hormones and antibiotics, and forced into crowded, cruel and stressful conditions is not healthy food. This is a point upon which most Paleo followers, vegans and vegetarians can commonly agree. Many people think that the Paleo diet is all about mindlessly gorging on meat with few or no vegetables. I actually eat more vegetables than most vegetarians and moderate my protein intake.”
The Vegans Say . . .
Kris Carr — “As I began to connect the dots beyond just my health, a compassionate plant-based diet became the cornerstone of my activism and my spiritual practice. This way of living doesn’t contribute to suffering — cellular suffering (caused by poor diet, lifestyle and environmental factors), animal torture and suffering, and planetary suffering (caused by the factory-farm system). And, all protein is not created equal — animal protein is highly acidic and not as healthy as plant protein. We get hung up on the misbelief that we must get a ‘complete protein’ from a single source. While mammal flesh is technically complete — meaning it contains all the essential amino acids — it’s also complete with a host of problems. The FedEx guy is a complete protein, but that doesn’t mean you should eat him. Eating a varied plant-based diet, on the other hand, provides plenty of protein in a safe and easy-to-digest form.”
Brendan Brazier — “There is a misconception about how much effort it takes to eat a vegan diet and avoid animal products. A lot of interests want you to eat meat and dairy, which has built misconceptions into our psyche. I was a victim of that for many years, but it’s not correct. If people saw how simply I eat and how little prep I put into my food, they would see how convenient it is.”
The Moderators Say . . .
“The primary benefit of a vegan diet is that the removal of animal products usually necessitates a higher amount of nutrient-rich plant produce. The cons of a vegan diet could be the inclusion of too much heavily processed food, including seitan and isolated soy protein, flour, sweeteners and oils.” — Joel Fuhrman
“Coca-Cola and potato chips can qualify as a ‘vegan diet.’ It’s important to understand that doing veganism well requires a fair bit of discernment to get a healthy amount of proteins, nuts, seeds, etc. If all you’re eating as a vegan is fruit and grains, you could easily get diabetes.” — Mark Hyman
Daily Menu
PALEO: Robb Wolf
“A ‘typical’ day is tough to pin down for me. Some days, I have leftovers from dinner for breakfast. Other days, I might have some grilled salmon with fruit, or scrambled eggs with greens. For lunch, I’ll have poultry or fish with a salad and sweet potato, and dinner might be pork loin and veggies in marinara over spaghetti squash. This changes based on what is seasonal and what looks good in the grocery store, what’s free-range or organic, and so on. Between meals, I snack on nuts and seeds.”
VEGAN: Kris Carr
“For breakfast, I have many options: organic vegetable juice or a green smoothie, seed pancakes, tofu scramble, sprouted-grain bread (or gluten-free bread) with almond butter or avocado, or millet porridge with peaches. For lunch and dinner I focus on vegetables: I might have a big salad or sautéed veggies with a tasty sauce accompanied by something like bean soup, a burrito, falafel, vegetarian shepherd’s pie, tempeh Reuben with sauerkraut, or a hearty root-vegetable stew.”
On Eating Grains
The Paleos Say . . .
Robb Wolf —“People who believe the prohibition of grains is extreme or unnecessary have managed to completely ignore the relevant research. When people put dogmatic
doctrine (veganism) ahead of science, no amount of research will change minds. If a conventional eater wanted to embrace a more moderate version of the Paleo diet, simply avoiding all grains, as well as all liquid calories (juices, sugary coffee drinks, etc.), would be a great first step.”
Nora Gedgaudas — “There is a dizzying ocean of literature in the field of immunology, gastroenterology, neurology and metabolic science pouring out right now and underscoring the adverse impacts of grains in all these areas of health. I would also say there is a lack of grasp of the depth and breadth of gluten’s devastating influence over more disease processes than I have room to list here (no fewer than 55 diseases are known clearly to be associated with grain consumption). The undeniable connection between grains and every manner of immunological, inflammatory, neurological and physiological disease process is literally overwhelming and deeply, deeply troubling. It is literally a public health catastrophe. According to the journal Gastroenterology, the incidence of full-blown celiac disease (the mere tip of the gluten-intolerance iceberg) has increased 400 percent in the last 50 years alone. No one who lives or breathes anywhere on this planet has a ‘grain deficiency’ . . . but countless millions suffer from the myriad potentially devastating effects of grains on their health, many of whom don’t even suspect the underlying culprit. What is ‘extreme’ is not the avoidance of grains but their unprecedented and unnatural prevalence in our modern food supply. We’ve only been incorporating grains for no more than the last 0.4 percent of our total evolutionary history (2.6 million years). We are simply ill designed and poorly suited to consume these foods.”
The Vegans Say . . .
John McDougall — “Cereal grains are currently the most important nutritional component of the human diet — and for more than 10,000 years, grains have been recognized as staples and were once extolled as ‘the staff of life.’ The most important support for my conclusion that we are close to vegan, primarily starch-eaters is based on an observation that you can easily validate for yourself: All large populations of trim, healthy people throughout written human history have obtained the bulk of their calories from starch. Examples of thriving people now and in the past include Japanese and Chinese in Asia eating rice, buckwheat and sweet potatoes; Mayans and Aztecs in Central America who ate corn; and Egyptians in the Middle East who once thrived on wheat.”
Kris Carr — “Refined grains act like sugar in the body and are not recommended. However, along with legumes, nuts, seeds, and a wealth of vegetables and fruits, whole grains such as quinoa, brown rice, kamut, amaranth and others are filling, offer quick energy, are simple for our bodies to digest, and are a key component of a healthy diet.”
The Moderators Say . . .
“I think the Paleo argument of no grains is interesting and has some merit. If you go with traditional grains, such as buckwheat, quinoa and millet, which have been around for 10,000 years, you’re better off. But gluten-containing refined grains, and modern dwarf wheat full of super-starch and super-gluten, can be problematic.” — Mark Hyman
“When it comes to crafting your own eating plan, listen to your body. I think we are all biochemically unique, and there is no one right diet that works well for everyone. But for many people, both the Paleo and the vegan diets can work well, and there are aspects to both I like a lot, especially avoiding sugar and dairy [for most Paleos], not counting calories, and rather simply eating recommended foods. It’s important in the vegan diet to get adequate protein, vitamin B12 and omega-3 fatty acids and to not eat too much sugar or gluten. On the Paleo diet, try to avoid factory-farmed meats and only eat low-mercury fish.” — Frank Lipman
“The biggest potential benefits of a Paleo diet are that it is low-glycemic and it prohibits refined foods, concentrated sweeteners and processed grains — foods that are at the
foundation of our obesity and diabetes epidemic. It can be an unhealthy way to eat, though, if you’re using commercially raised meats, or if the ratio of plant produce to animal products is not high enough.” — Joel Fuhrman
On The Environment
The Paleos Say . . .
Nora Gedgaudas — “The idea of meat-eating being necessarily destructive to the environment is absurd (unless we’re talking about feedlot farming, which I would never advocate). The planet is filled with plentiful non-agricultural grassland that can be used for sustainably raising livestock.”
Lierre Keith — “The food I eat builds topsoil, requires no fossil fuel, supports local farmers who are my neighbors, repairs habitat and waterways, and sequesters carbon. In contrast, every form of row-cropping releases carbon. Indeed, agriculture marks the beginning of global warming. But grasslands sequester carbon at an extraordinary rate.”
The Vegans Say . . .
Brendan Brazier — “Seventy percent of land used in North America to grow food is used for animal feed. By growing it and passing it through an animal first, a lot of energy is lost. Yes, some plains are better suited to grazing and supporting pasture-fed animals, but if we all followed the Paleo lead and ate meat three times a day, we couldn’t meet the demand. There just wouldn’t be enough food for everyone without agriculture.”
John McDougall — “People who make the claim that agriculture is the most destructive thing people have ever done to the planet — and that it leads to deforestation of rainforests and destruction of prairies — are often overlooking the impact of livestock on the environment. The largest part of that deforestation is done to grow cattle, pigs, sheep and chicken for Westerners. The amount of land used to grow calories from animal food is 17 times greater than the amount required to grow the same number of calories from starches (potatoes, etc.).”
The Moderators Say . . .
“Reaching an optimal diet can be achieved in several ways. Some indigenous cultures like the Pima Indians ate a diet that was 80 percent plant-based. On the other hand, Inuits eat a diet that is 80 percent animal fat. Both are fine. If everybody is fighting with each other about what kind of foods we should be eating, we are missing the bigger picture of how industrialized foods are destroying the earth.” — Mark Hyman
“I advise all people to avoid foods that have been altered by processing or environmental toxins. You can’t assume that just because cavemen ate a certain type of food, that type of food is the same in this day and age. For example, Paleo fishermen caught fish without mercury, dioxin and sex-altering hormones, but it’s very hard to find clean fish these days, even if you catch them yourself.” — Frank Lipman
On Processed/Industrialized Foods
The Paleos Say . . .
Robb Wolf — “Modern foods bypass the evolutionarily evolved appetite-control mechanisms. Doughnuts, waffles, bagels and ice cream are pretty darn yummy. It takes a strong desire to be healthy to forgo these foods! If, however, folks are willing to give a Paleo diet an earnest try for 30 days, they find the cravings for modern, processed foods tend to decrease, and adherence is quite easy.”
Lierre Keith — “I destroyed my body eating a vegan diet. I now have a degenerative disease of the spine and an autoimmune disease. The Paleo diet is the only diet that has helped. The taste is so satisfying compared with the low-fat, hormonally disruptive soy glop laced with rancid industrial oils that I ate for 20 years.”
The Vegans Say . . .
Kris Carr — “I totally agree that processed foods are unhealthy. No matter where they come from. But processed foods are totally unnecessary. People often use them when transitioning to a plant-based diet because they are afraid to give up the idea and texture of chicken, beef, etc. But real food is the only food that will truly serve us. We don’t need meat or a meatlike substance at the center of our plates. Plants contain all the nutritional value we need.”
Brendan Brazier — “A vegan diet is so broad now and can technically include refined and processed foods such as vegan ice cream and vegan hot dogs. That’s one of the reasons I developed the Thrive diet, so that it’s not just about not eating animal products. There is a lot more in common between the Thrive diet and a Paleo diet than there is different between the two. I advocate for a lot of whole, unprocessed foods, and I’m not a big grain eater.”
From Disease to Wellness
All our Paleo and vegan sources are passionate about their respective diets’ potential for healing the body. For example, Robb Wolf says he came to embrace a Paleo style of eating because his vegan diet caused his health to degrade. Lierre Keith (a former vegan) and Nora Gedgaudas (a former vegetarian) had similar experiences. In contrast, Kris Carr embraced veganism almost a decade ago after being diagnosed with stage 4 vascular cancer (her tumors are currently dormant). Here’s a closer look at both Wolf’s and Carr’s “aha!” moments:
PALEO: Robb Wolf
“I became very ill eating a vegan diet. I had ulcerative colitis, IBS and a host of other problems. I had started eating a vegan diet thinking this was a healthy way of eating. At the time, I was a research biochemist, and someone suggested that my problems might be resolved with the adoption of an ancestral (Paleo) way of eating. Within a few weeks of adopting a Paleo diet, my ulcerative colitis was gone, as were my other health concerns. I’ve been eating this way for 15 years now and have experienced better health than at any previous point in my life. Although the Paleo diet advocates the consumption of animal products, it is a thoughtful way of eating congruent with both ethics and sustainability, and I make this a large part of the education I provide.”
VEGAN: Kris Carr
“I was diagnosed with an incurable cancer. After I thoroughly researched many diets and consulted top functional-medicine doctors, I determined the vegan diet was the best plan to reduce inflammation, boost the immune system and increase longevity. In the beginning of my diagnosis I was very symptomatic. Since changing my diet (reducing stress and exercising more), the quality of my life has improved dramatically. I feel healthier, have more energy and better blood work, I don’t get colds, and I no longer struggle with my weight. Cancer aside, my body was breaking down. At 30 years old, I had lots of health issues that I had learned to live with: terrible allergies, chronic bronchitis, infections, eczema, irritable bowel syndrome, high cholesterol and a host of other problems. All that changed when I changed what I put on my plate.”
Rookie Mistakes
PALEO PITFALLS
Not eating enough veggies. “A lot of protein is not necessarily better,” says Nora Gedgaudas, who notes that she eats more vegetables than most vegetarians. “Eating sufficient ‘complete’ source protein is very important.” Also, she adds, if you are coming from a vegetarian or vegan background, “the biggest mistakes you can make are changing too much too soon and diving into consuming lots of meat before your body has readapted to the idea.”
Not being selective about the meat you are eating. Clean healthy fats from grass-fed or wild animals — not industrial, factory-farmed animals — are one of the foundations of the Paleo diet. Industrially farmed meats are considered toxic.
Presuming low-fat is better for you. “Assuming that the leanest possible meat and low fat are the ‘healthy’ way to go can result in fatigue and energy compromise along with aggravated carbohydrate cravings,” says Gedgaudas, who derives the majority of her daily calories from animal and other whole-food-sourced fats.
VEGAN GAFFES
Relying on meat-analog products. Many people transition to a vegan diet by loading up on nonmeat products that mimic the taste and texture of beef, chicken and pork. But you’d be better off avoiding these highly processed, soy-laden foods and sticking to plant-based whole foods instead.
Making a sudden switch. “I made the mistake of jumping in too quickly,” says Brendan Brazier. “Start with one meat-free, veggie-heavy meal or even one snack a day, like a smoothie. As you slowly start to incorporate more whole foods, your palate will change and the cravings will go away.”
Eating too much processed food in general. “Eat real food. Eat plants. Remember: The core of the words ‘vegan’ or ‘vegetarian’ is vegetables! You’ve gotta eat them to benefit from this way of eating,” says Carr.
For more on the Paleo-vegan debate:
- Listen to our podcast with Brendan Brazier, Dr. Frank Lipman and Robb Wolf
- Read complete interview transcripts with Kris Carr, Nora Gedgaudas and Mark Hyman, MD
What folks are all forgetting when supporting the Paleo diet is that zillions of years ago, man might have eaten meat. Ok, that was not because it was a delicacy, it was because that was the ONLY choice. Famines, natural disasters left them with no choice but to eat that steak left behind of hunt an animal or two.
In the 21st century, there’s hardly any scarcity of food (except for undeveloped countries). So if you have bounty of plant based food available, why do you still want to live in the caveman age? Stop the bloodshed and eat plant based foods. With the latest research, you also know what vitamins and minerals you need. You have Daiya cheese for your vegan pizzas and organic soy and tofu for your meaty meals. So can you give me 1 reason why animals should be slaughtered in this modern age?
Even if you do want to eat any plant based food in moderation, (the soy controversy blah blah), you can do it in this age. Without breaking a sweat. Buy organic and rotate food groups. Slaughtering animals for your own selfish motive, despite having an option is inexcusable.
Compare koala bears to humans. Koala bears live on a diet exclusively of eucalyptus leaves. Eucalyptus leaves are poisonous but Koala bears have evolved immunity to it so they have almost no competition. Because their diet is so specific Koala bears can only live where eucalyptus trees grow. Humans, on the other hand, can live on almost anything. There are humans that live on little else but tubers and berries while there are other humans who live on little else but raw seal meat and whale blubber. Because our diet is so flexible we can live off the land on every continent except Antarctica. Both camps in the paleo vs vegan debate cherry pick the science that supports their position and ignores anything that goes against. The biggest fallacy I see in the paleo camp is the idea that humans evolved eating a lot of meat. Before livestock meat was an infrequent part of the human diet. For most of man’s evolutionary history we ate mostly plants but meat was an important albeit occasional source of dense nutrition. The biggest fallacy I see in the vegan camp is the idea that consuming any animal product is unnatural and unhealthy. There are no traditional vegan cultures; veganism is an entirely new phenomenon. What is the most natural and healthiest diet for mankind? We are omnivores but physiologically we are much closer to herbivores than carnivores. True carnivores like dogs can eat raw putrid carrion that would probably kill people. The most natural and healthiest diet is probably a vegetable and fruit rich near-vegetarian diet with only occasional feasts of eggs, meat, fish, or fowl. Wheat and dairy seems specific to where our ancestors came from. Groups with a long history of consuming these foods have adapted to them while those who haven’t didn’t. Most Caucasians have a gene mutation that allows them to digest lactose their entire life while most Asians loose the ability to digest lactose as toddlers.
Very interesting article and comments. Of course, I need to add my 2 cents worth also! I think both lifestyles are on the right track when it comes to eating naturally and getting the processed food out of our diets. The thing that puzzles me is the argument that after “only” 10000 years, we haven’t adapted to eating farmed grains and legumes. It seems to me that the research points to our modern diets, high in processed foods (including tons of sugar in everything) as the problem. Also, the “obesity epidemic” is a very recent phenomenon. It would seem that for 9,900 or so years, humans managed to eat both animal products AND plant foods, including whole grains and legumes, without becoming obese and developing many other debilitating diseases. Processed foods and increased sugar seem like far bigger problems than either grains or meat.
I wish I could see the vegan rebut to the fact that 55+ diseases only occured in humans after grain was introduced into the diet. For thousands of years, hunter/gatherers did not consume grain (as has been proven by many studies) and it just so happens that during the agricultural revolution, diseases become rampant.
The Moderators got it right.
This article is the biggest bunch of malarki ever. I don’t think I’ve ever seen so much finger-pointing in my life, even as a vegan I was put off. The truth of the matter is that eating a well-balanced diet and exercising regularly is what will get you through the day. This paleo approach is bull, if you really want to go old-fashioned, don’t eat eggs or dairy, load up on fruits, nuts, and vegetables, and eat meat on occasion. The vegan argument was whiny, and really did not reflect why I am a vegan, which is for my cardiovascular health and longevity. People in this day and age eat way too much protein, saturated fats, and refined sugar, and not enough fiber, essential vitamins and plant-based foods. These writers need to grow up.
Meagan, a few things to think about..
Saturated fat and dietary cholesterol are not related to cardiovascular health. That’s 1970′s talk.
Protein is the building block of life. ‘Grass-fed meat’ is also the most nutrient dense food available.
Fingers should be pointed where deserved. Sugar and grains for sure. Not doing so is what lets terrible products get put on our shelves without anyone knowing. and worse, lets them be marketed as ‘healthy’
Neil, a few things to think about..
Saturated fat and dietary cholesterol are related to cardiovascular health.
Protein is the building block of life. Hm… where exactly did those gigantic cows get all that protein? They consumed it from their vegan diet. In other words, all paleo dieters are eating protein that came from plants.
A crappy vegan diet is just like any other crappy diet. If a man consumes isolated soy proteins and other meat analogues for years, he should not be surprised that he has compromised his health. He has done it to himself and should cease whining.
Cows have a very different digestive system than we do, with several stomachs that act as fermentation vessels for breaking down all the grass and crude feedstocks they eat. Humans cannot eat like cows, as we do not have a rumen to do this for us, as a cow does. Vegans always point to ruminants or apes to rationalize their diets, conveniently discounting all the insects, insect feces, and small animals that get chomped down with the grass and leaves! If you really want to eat like an ape, you should also be eating termites, feces, and the occasional ape neighbor. This information is well-documented. But, continually misrepresented in the vegan community. Eat what you want. But, the facts are the facts.
Thankfully we’ve come to understand the harm grains (mainly gluten) do to our bodies. 10000 years in the grand scale of mankind is just a sliver, so it’s important to remember that foods should not be seen as good or bad, but measured rather on their density of nutrients AND lack of anti-nutrients. Since our bodies (especially the brain) have depended on animal products since the beginning, we would need much longer than a mere 10000 years to fully allow for adaptation to a diet lacking in animal products. As for how we can ever deal with gluten or why we’d want to promote unsustainable agricultural is beyond me.
What’s interesting about Vegan arguments on animal suffering is how many more living creatures are killed via agriculture than from grazing animals on pasture. Google LEAST HARM PRINCIPLE for more info.
I was diagnosed with stage 3 colon cancer when I was 26. I had surgery, but refused chemotherapy and used nutrition and natural therapies to heal myself.
I was raw vegan for 90 days.
This is a powerful cleansing and healing diet in the short term to be sure, but many people cannot thrive on it long term. I was grossly underweight.
I was 6’2″ 135 lbs!
My naturopath/nutritionist added some clean meats back into my diet along with a high percentage (70-80%) of raw food.
That was back in 2004. And needless to say, it worked!
There is no perfect diet, we all have different needs. It’s important not to buy into dogma and keep an open mind as you experiment with finding your ideal diet.
I think the most important principle that we can all agree on is a eating a clean diet that is free from processed artificial food and that includes lots of organic produce, and humanely raised animal products if you eat them.
More info about what I did at http://www.chrisbeatcancer.com if anyone is interested.
Wow. I don’t know what exactly is best for me. I was Atkins for a long period of time and was definitely at my leanest and felt great. Seems as though every Paleo I meet is lean, cut and healthy. However, after viewing one too many videos on the horrific butchering of scared/unhealthy animals, I tried a more vegetarian approach. I’m bloated, gaining weight and not feeling too good. I cannot bear to watch animals getting slaughtered, but how can I possibly eat a Paleo diet without spending hundreds of dollars on “grass-fed” beef? I seriously do not know what to do. I am in limbo. And, I hate it. I think factory farms are hell. How else can we sustain food for the population, though? I love reading the comments and hearing from both sides. I’m just stuck. Maybe I should just stick with veggies, fruit and high quality meats, all in moderation….I definitely know I should stay away from grains…..Wish me luck. I think I need to read some of the books mentioned. Thanks to all who posted.
If you have any farmers markets in your area you can get great quality grass fed meats that are not that expensive. Buy in larger orders and freeze to get the price down.
I had a lot of success with Atkins as well but I just couldnt seem to get any leaner. After reading The Paleo Solution, I immediately transitioned to whole unprocessed foods and grass fed meat. Since I have gone from 25% bodyfat down to 16% and feel amazing.
Also check out Marksdailyapple.com. Amazing stuff. Good luck.
I feel like the vegans’ arguments are not addressing what they paleo diet actually is. They base their arguments on factory farming, and the paleo people are explcitly saying they do NOT support CAFOs! For example: “[Paleo] can be an unhealthy way to eat, though, if you’re using commercially raised meats, or if the ratio of plant produce to animal products is not high enough.” — Joel Fuhrman Paleo does NOT eat “commercially raised meats,” and paleo plates are more loaded with veggies and fruits than most vegan plates I see! I think paleo comes out on top. I’d love to see a raw vegan / paleo throwdown, though, because they both avoid all grains and they are more similar except for the animal issue. Whether you are paleo or vegan I think we ALL need to recogznie how monocrops are destroying the environment, whether the crops are of soy, grains or livestock.
Healthy happy vegan here!! Eat no fake meats, no fake cheeses hardly any soy.. it can be done since we are all meant to be herbivorous! Stop over-analyzing everything; not to mention all the ugly opinions going on in these comments!!! I am not lacking in any nutrients.. I eat mostly veggies for all my nutrients… fruits, beans,nuts and LIVE grains. The only supplement if you want to call it that is nutritional yeast that I sprinkle in all my food for Vit B12. I also sprinkle hemp, flax, and chia seeds in all my meals for nutrients,3 of the most healthy and healing foods out there!!! How many people do that?? Our bodies are meant to make all the nutrients for itself.. yes with the help of our foods, but Where do you think animals (the strong healthy creatures that they are get all their nutrients??? Now ponder for a moment.. meditate their and then do some darn research! They get it first hand from PLANTS!!! why do we say eat ‘grass-fed’ meats.. nutrients come from the land!!! Why must we think we have to eat our nutrients second hand!
Vegan works! NO one is forcing it down anyone’s throat, but I simply don’t need second hand nutrients nor second hand info. I will research for myself and eat what I find ethical on ALL Grounds!
Great article by the way. I like the concepts of the Paleo diet pertaining to not eating processed garbage, and less BAD grains! Again live grains are healthy! Yes & Amen!!
finally some moderation between the two factions
i think indeed as Mark said in the article
“If everybody is fighting with each other about what kind of foods we should be eating, we are missing the bigger picture of how industrialized foods are destroying the earth”
We should help each-other and not fight .
share vegetable recipes .
For eating meat morning, midday , evening is indeed disastrous .
I’d love to have decent vegetable recipes to lower my meat intake .
Greetings from Belgium
Benjy
I wonder if these Paleo and Vegan idiots realize that they will die and rot the same way everyone else will? Apparently they think they’re special snowflakes immune to any health issues – newsflash: eat whatever crap your silly little diets permit, I promise you will drop dead the same as a normal person who eats whatever they want.
It’s clear that Maureen is a bot that works for Monsanto.
Wise men are considered idiots for idiots…
Who cares what happens to you after death?! All these are for having a HEALTHIER life (if it makes sense for you) while you are alive.
I find it hard how we are shoving this “propaganda” down your throat as you chose to read this blog, secondly why is it so bad for us to live the life we want? Just because I don’t want to be overweight burdened with metabolic syndrome (look it up) and spend my retirement years stuck in a hospital. I personally see the results of unhealthy habits everyday. By the way it is very rude of you to call people idiots especially since a lot of individuals who follow these diets are the healthcare professionals that will end up trying to save your life at 54 years old.
Both these Paleo and Vegan enthusiasts are mentally ill and have eating disorders that prevent them from living a healthy life. It’s hilarious how they both claim to have abundant research proving that their argument is true when in reality both are idiots. Newsflash: there is nothing wrong with eating meat, or vegetables, or fruit, or bread. Out of 7 billion people on the planet, most eat all of these things and somehow survive day to day without life threatening diseases. If you choose to have an eating disorder that’s fine but stop trying to stick your mentally unbalanced opinions down others throats and pretend it’s science.
How can eating a diet closer to the natural human one be considered a disorder? The disorder is eating packaged, refined unnatural ones. I am a vegan but think both paleo and vegan diets are tremendously better than the SAD (standard american/western diet).
How can she defend that most people eat modern diets healthily when dietary disease is rapidly increasing and the biggest killers in the world are rarely in nature ie. heart disease.
Lastly, the vegan and paleo diets are all about eating foods as they are found in nature, how can that be unnatural or worse than what Maureen eats? It’s funny that she considers her finding, reading and commenting on someone else’s site ‘forcing opinions down her throat’.
If one wants to pretend that there are no health or environmental consequences that come from eating, fine. But the truth is that what you eat day in and day out affects your health and the environment. Thank god people are actually recognizing the connection. For to long we have popped into grocery stores and satisfied our every desire without considering the consequences. Those consequences are far reaching and include health and its sky rocketing costs, energy and its sky rocketing cost and the overall environmental health of the planet.
This article was interesting to me for many reasons. Recently I have been reading about the benefits of a plant-based diet. I am learning about the Ph balance of food, nutrient density, nutritional stress and about how animal protein effects our kidney and liver. So being the guinea pig that I am I gave it a shot.
Removing chicken and whey protein from my diet was not as hard as I imagined. I now consume a mostly raw food diet supplemented by legumes, pseudograins (amaranth, buckwheat, quinoa) and nuts/seeds. I have not yet embarked on plant protein powder but I will buy some soon enough. I am curious to see how my body responds to hemp and pea proteins as they are the most alkaline of plant-proteins.
Oh yeah, I realize that a lot of times a plant-based diet is far from healthy so I guess what I am doing is a “high nutrient density raw food” type of vegan diet which is vastly different from a lot of “vegans” who use way more grains, cooked foods and fats.
I really keep the fats low- mostly raw nuts/seeds and a bit of walnut oil for my dressings or stir fry dishes but not much oil based fat as it is stripped of its other nutrients once in oil form. I also don’t use any vegan cheeses, vegan ice creams or vegan type butters which to me are pricey nonsensical “non foods”. Very little nutrient density in any of them. I use instead ample nutritional yeast for that cheesy flavor and to get my B12 vitamins.
Removing animal protein from my diet I thought would leave me unsatisfied and low on energy. The exact opposite has happened. By removing the 63 grams of animal protein per day and upping my beans and nuts in my raw salad at lunch/dinner and adding some nuts and oats to my cut fruit for breakfast has increased my mid-day energy. Even my workouts have changed. I am forty and have been an athlete my entire life. I had recently grown accustomed to a longer “warm-up” and I had attributed this to my growing older. Recently I noticed that my need for a warm up before my early morning cross-fit sessions is all but eliminated. I am ready to hit it hard the minute I start in the mornings- so strange. And this is not due to eating prior working out. My morning routine pre-workout is unchanged from eating animal protein to embarking on this plant-based diet.
I thought by consuming a higher carbohydrate (albeit complex carbs but carbs nonetheless) I thought I’d get a bit of belly fat from the increased insulin in my system, etc. But the opposite has occurred. What little flab I had in my mid-section (I am female and lean) is gone. I even lost a bit in my chest and I don’t have much to lose there anyway).
What I have come to think- I think I am consuming less calories now. I know its not calories in calories out but I find the nutritional density of the fruits, veg, nuts, beans is so high that the epistat in my brain is turned off faster than when I was eating animal protein. It’s also that the increased raw veggie content in my diet is filling me up via the increased fiber. I don’t know. But all I know is that my sugar cravings and my swings in energy are removed. I dunno- its just been a real trip going full vegan vs. you know, my usual cut up roasted chicken on my salad and whey protein shakes post-workout.
I think, based on my current experimenting, that I will continue on this plant-based path. I think the less stress on my body due to not ingesting animal protein is making the major difference and I am totally surprised.
Go vegan. Stop the murder of billions of animals. Stop the animal holocaust. See the real world. Medical science is wrong about everything nowadays. These people are the same people that help and fund the slaughter houses. Science is clear that when we eat foods that have negative energy of innocent beings we face the disastrous consequences. Peace out
Go Omnivore, because that’s what we are in order to be most healthy. Stop the billions of dollars spent on unhealthy vegan foods. Stop the dental problems due to veganism. See the real world. Medical Science needs to understand the underlying relation with most disease. It’s generally diet related, in relation with balance, moderation, production method, processing ability.
Medical Science are the same mindset that causes vegan propaganda to endear peoples psychology. Life is clear that if we practice ‘in tune’ prudent moderation and balance, we will be our healthiest.
‘Unhealthy vegan foods’: What?-Fruit and vegetables? Yeah, so taxing: As opposed to the heinous amounts of water and 80% of the worlds grain (that could feed the entire world) that has to go to livestock to produce a tiny percentage of meat in return, plus billions of dollars spent on pharmaceuticals (more than we spend on humans) that keep those animals alive long enough to be slaughtered. Plus the greenhouse gasses from livestock that contribute to more than the entire worlds transportation system per year?
Come on Scott, now I’m pro-paleo for those that choose to meat because it’s better, but when you start calling down veganism, that’s a mistake.
PS Scott, over 80% of the worlds soya production does not go to vegan products, it is used a high protein feed for cattle and the like.
Eating meat is what makes us most healthy?? Then why is America the most obese country in the world? Why are Americans at most risk for cancers?? Stop trying to justify the abuse these poor animals go through just to satisfy your cravings.
This debate somewhat lifts my spirits, but it had neither the depth of discussion nor the determination by its attendees to either fully resolve the issues at hand or agree that at this point no %100 conclusion can be successfully made, after which they would attempt to devote some time and effort in performing studies and experiments that could bring forth solid, conclusive evidence.
I felt like there wasn’t a strong enough goal for the debate. It was more of show and tell assertions with some argumentation. I would have liked it better if the reason for the “debate” was to come close to a conclusion about which diet is REQUIRED for optimal health which would suggest that the person exercises at least occasionally. This has nothing to do with practicality, feasibility on global scale, current production practices, or byproducts of manufacturing the food. These are separate issues although I will agree they are very important. Also, I would think requiring the least amount of supplemention would weigh on any decision. This would necessitate a comparison of what each camp views as the most healthy version of their diet rather than allowing the conversation to be dominated by taking shots at the unhealthy foods the oversimplified forms of the opposition’s diet would seem to allow.
They all agree about eating natural, whole foods. That’s great, so do I! I still would have liked them to have given a unanimous scientific explanation for why they all think that; then, stop talking about. That should have then required them to explain that the diets they are suggesting are based on eating whole foods regardless on the type of food.
Two other topics I would have liked the experts to have nailed down in the debate are 1)Are grains bad causing inflammation, etc? They should have delve into more detail about what grains do, if all forms are equally bad, specifically how they might differ, what is the basis for these opinions, and if a final conclusion would affect the optimal version of either diet.
2)Is meat, fish, or any other animal products or byproduct–not already excluded by both diets on the basis of scientific evidence–a health hindrance or not optimal in some way? Vegans state that meat has its own health concerns, but don’t explain in detail what it is exactly. Any valid health concern with meat needs to be on the basis that regardless of quantity within diet, it causes a specific set of ill effects over a specific amount of time(it goes without saying that if something at all in meat is bad for you, more is worse). I strongly think that if this was the focus of the debate and it was conducted with mutual respect, indulgence, and humbled clarity this could have been a more productive and informative use of the experts’ collective time as well as the individual readers or society for that matter.
I wish everyone the best of luck on your health endeavors and I thank the experts for there effort and altruism.
I agree with you there. There was virtually no clarity given. I have been reading alot about paleo and if you read Robb Wolfs “The Paleo Solution”, there is tons of scientific evidence relating to grains and their effect on inflamation.
I have to find a good vegan book though. I have watched a few documentaries but they seem to be so full of propoganda that it is hard to take them seriously. I am open to the ideas but it seems far fetched so far. As long as you are diligent about your source for meat, how can it be bad. Vegans mostly stick to the idea that we all eat factory farmed meat when I personally would never touch it.
The problem with paleo is this ….
How do you find a healthy meat? Meat is acidic and, therefore, inflammatory. Meat concentrates environmental toxins like mercury and dioxin. And all industrial meats, making up most of the meats available at stores and restaurants are loaded up with drugs and hormones.
Sure, a vegan who eats mostly processed food and non probiotic carbs is going to have more risk of health problems. But the whole food vegan is gaining the health benefits of all those fresh veggies while avoiding the inflammatory and often toxin-laden meat and cheese.
That is just it, you go to a local farm/farmers market and find a farmer that grass feeds his meat. Ask the right question. “Has this animal ever been fed anything other than grass/hay?”
Meat is only acidic if it is being fed grains. A grass fed animal is rich in omega 3 and very lean.
I would like to know how any vegans eat a balanced diet without needles or supplements… and REALLY hard work. You HAVE to eat all kinds of grains, so what if you are allergic to them? You eat pills enriched with them?
How is that healthier? How is it healthy to have a diet that doesn’t allow you to naturally obtain the vitamins your body needs?
There are eight different B vitamins and our body needs them all. There are no plants that contain these vitamins.
The vitamin A found in orange and green vegetables is beta carotene which the body must first convert to the usable form of Vitamin A. That conversion requires bile salts, which are produced by your liver when you consume fat.
You can get some of the components of protein (the amino acids) from legumes, seeds and grain but many people find grains and legumes (which contain digestive inhibitors) quite hard to digest.
Lactose intolerance, yes. Gluten intolerance yes. Nuts allergies, for sure. Soy allergies, yes. But meat allergies…? some people may find that it doesn’t suite them, but I have never heard of a true meat “allergy”.
How does 50% (+) of the population (those with allergies) eat a vegan diet without supplements?
I didn’t realize my diet had a name until I googled it. I care about animals and I eat non processed foods. I would like to one day farm my own chickens and grow my own vegetables. Being paleo means denying yourself man-made crap. It doesn’t mean you’re a step from being vegan or a less altruistic dieter.
Whatever your intentions are for being so adamant about your vegan diet doesn’t matter, a paleo diet is a superior way to get your required intake of vitamins and minerals! You can’t argue that.
That’s quite a statement Laura! How can you say a paleo diet is outright a superior way to get vitamins and minerals? The main difference is the meat, which contains less vitamins and minerals gram for gram that fruits and vegetables. As for nutrition, you have been duped by common myth: All B vitamins are found in grains, fruits and vegetables. B12 is actually a bacteria in soil and if we have a healthy gut we even produce it. Yes we convert vitamin A, like all herbivores, not carnivores because they are desinged to eat meat and get V.A directly; in the same way they can convert to vitamin C, we need dietary sources of V.C. hence the importance of plants. All minerals come from plants and are absorbed second hand through flesh. Carnivores need to eat herbivores to get minerals from the plants! It’s just common myth, for example most iron in your diet comes from plant sources, but people assume you need meat for it. Plants are a more efficient, easily digested and jam-packed source of vitamins and minerals than any other on this Earth. So I’m sorry but you are wrong Laura. Eat what you like, I don’t call down your diet, but you mistakenly call down veganism.
PS Laura, I could ask you without milk which you never drink in nature, where do you get your calcium? (Milk actually causes osteoporosis through metabolic acidosis as it is designed for another species). I’ll tell you where: Leafy greens, fruits and vegetables! Veganism has everything you need so don’t even try to say otherwise.
I’d just like to clear up one point here that seems to be under constant misapprehension. If you choose to eat a diet without animal products for health reasons only you are NOT a ‘vegan’, you merely follow a vegan diet. A vegan is someone who eschews animal products on the basis of morals/ethics and adopts a complete lifestyle in accordance with such beliefs.
For those characters who talk about shifting from vegan to paleo, I would think it highly unlikely that they ever adopted the former on moral grounds as most real vegans are extremely staunch in their beliefs and don’t cast them aside when a trendier or seemingly more nutritious diet comes along.
Oh man… I love comments like this. This is exactly what “The Vegetarian Myth” is all about. Oh yeah, I refused to read that book when I was vegan, and I even cheered when Keith got that pepper-laced pie thrown in her face by SF anarchists.
Yeah, I guess I was not really vegan when I:
1) got a vegan tattoo
2) wrote and published a book about factory farming and had Carol J. Adams praise it
3) protested animal cruelty for years
4) worked for VegNews magazine
5) wrote articles on food and politics for independent media outlets, including multiple strictly vegan magazines
6) adopted turkeys from farm sanctuary every year and sent the photos to all of my meat-eating family
7) ate processed crap full of chemicals instead of whole foods because often times the processed option was the vegan option
8) alienated everyone around me by screaming at them about how wrong they were
9) had a vegan food blog
10) quit high-paying good jobs when they violated my vegan ethics
YEAH, I wasn’t really vegan. I was just on a diet.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vegan
It doesn’t say WHY.. just that they do not exploit animals.
So by your ‘definition,’ paleo’s are vegan.
Your statement is laughable.
The fact that you are concerned with such details, shows that you are doing things for the wrong reasons.
YOU are a vegan because it is trendy.
That is apparent in your self-righteous comment.
People who would shift their eating habits are more likely doing it for their health. What makes you think that paleo is a new trend that people follow as opposed to a more healthy choice, with the same respect for animals in mind?
People like you need to get over yourselves.
The best food is what is in its natural state(free of hormones, steroids, poisons, etc) whether it is animal or plant. Food in modern diets contain GMO foods, processed, and chemical laden items. Unfortunately, since we have all as human beings have decided to congregate in specific geographic regions, technology has responded to feed us(much to our determent). Most people cannot live in rural areas, hunt, fish, and grow their own natural wholesome foods. I grew up this way and am working my way back to this simplistic lifestyle.
We are most certainly omnivores…much like a bear…but always remember
Two of the most tell-tale characteristics of predators is the teeth shape and eye placement. Predators have sharp front canine teeth to allow for the gripping and killing of prey. The eyes are also on the front to allow for binocular vision. An easy way to remember this is from the children’s rhyme “eyes on of the side, love to hide. Eyes on the front, love to hunt.”
As everyone knows, diet is an extremely personal decision and oftentimes sparks a lot of either good discussion or non-productive dialogue. I have observed both in the above comments. We wrap a lot of emotion around the way we eat and what we eat, which is not a bad thing entirely. Even though I’m a “vegan,” in which I eat mostly unprocessed and “real” plant-based whole foods, it’s pretty clear that meat, when chosen well (i.e. organic, grass-fed, wild game, etc.) can be beneficial for others. I think the most important message is that the best medicine (as Hippocrates said it best) is derived through the power of real food – “Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine thy food.” When we create a extreme dogma or fixate on an ideology that “our way” is better than “another way,” we lose balance in our lives and create unneeded and unproductive animosity. And we all know our country thrives on extremism. I think each of us are so unique in our dietary needs due to our unique biochemical makeup (i.e. blood type for one) that some might be more successful on plants, some more on meat. I personally think Dr. D’Adamo, who has spent his entire career (in addition to his father’s) researching blood types and their history, has merit in his hypothesis that each of our diets should be based on our biochemical uniqueness. After all, we are a nation of numerous races and genetic diversity. This school of thought is where I see science and the world of nutrition going…back the the lineages of each of our unique genealogy and history and harmonizing that with current knowledge in nutrition, biochemistry, and immunology, etc….blending historical traditions with modern medicine. If we’re truly going to impact the health of this nation, we need to join forces and realize there is no “one diet fits all.” =)
Beautifully put. I used to be vegan, now I’m following a somewhat paleo diet (more veggies and fruit than meat). It’s all about the real food. Both paleo and vegan have similar ideologies…let’s stop fighting among each other and start focusing our anger on processed foods and factory farms.
Our teeth and digestive tracts compare more favorably to herbivores than carnivores. While I have no doubt that our ancestors ate meat, I suspect it was not a large component of their diet, certainly not before we learned to control fire. As beans/legumes and grains also need cooking, for us, it would seem to me we began eating larger amounts of both meats and grains around the same time?? I need to do some research, I guess…..
This whole debate is entirely ridiculous, when both diets are healthy because they de-emphasize processed foods. I think they both have merit and I know people on both sides who are very healthy and energetic.
However, I have to take issue with the “expert” quote “The taste is so satisfying compared with the low-fat, hormonally disruptive soy glop laced with rancid industrial oils that I ate for 20 years.” Well, duh, if you were eating nothing but processed soy crap for 20 years, then no wonder you were sick. I wish that Paleo people didn’t have to tear down another person’s preference just to make themselves feel better.
Interesting but unfortunate debate. I fully agree with Brian. Both diets are against our biggest global health threat: Processed, toxic food.
So lets rather work together to combat that evil monster and even go further to save our race and our habitat.
Why don’t we merge the 2 lifestyle types and keep the best part of each.
Paleo/Vegan lifestyles rolled into one super-healthy and ethically/ecologically responsible diet with the aim to promote the health of the human population and our planet. We do that by reducing to the lowest possible level the consumption of the non-Paleo food in our diet (healthy humans) and further limit our intake of animal meat to lowest possible levels (healthy earth).
Hey we can call it the Paleogan diet.
Or the Veleo diet…
Wheat Belly by William Davis is an excellent resource in this discussion. The wheat we eat is not the same as the wheat our parents and grandparents ate. The obesity epidemic accelerated around 1980 when the government recommended a low fat diet high in healthy whole grains.
What is missing in this energized debate are two elements. One is how food is prepared, whether it is consumed raw, deep fried or fried in pan with or without oils, boiled, steamed, baked, grilled, pickled, or marinated, etc.can make a difference healthwise. The second is no two people’s metabolism, lifestyles, health history, uses of pharmaceuticals or neutraceuticals, genetics, cultural and spiritual influences,living and working environments, access to specific foods, current state of physical and mental health and wellbeing, age, gender, and so many other variables that concretely determining one diet superior to another seems an exercise in futility.
I’ve recently become vegan. Although I keep hearing Paleo nonsense from a douche friend of mine. As such I was inclined to check out both sides. I think a good pro vegan documentary is Forks Over Knives. Which goes on to state that vegetable and legume based proteins are better than meat ones. That being said I still think there is credulity to the Paleo diet. Like everyone says we’re all pretty much promoting the same thing…clean, raw food.
Obviously my vegan diet contains much less processed foods. I try to eliminate it but sometimes it seems impossible to avoid something processed every day. But I feel like getting there 90-95% is still way better than before. I drink more water. But I still feel things like 100% are perfectly fine for you. If you guzzle them by the gallon? No. But if it’s natural then what’s the harm? It’s fruit and water basically. If there’s no sugar added etc then you’re good to go just be moderate.
And moderation is something you could probably apply to both of these diets. A Paleo based high protein diet can be bad if you consume too much meat and the same for Vegans and not getting enough protein or getting it through synthetic means. I must admit it does concern me to eat too many soy based meat analogs. But we avoid them in general. We usually get a little fake chicken, beef (Yves does make a natural soy option in the sense it isn’t contrived or manipulated, just a soy based “meat” product) , and tofu (actually natural since this is from beans) here and there. But it in no way makes up a majority of our diet. We mostly stick to vegetables, grains, and legumes. Outside of that there is quite a bit of nuts and seeds as well. I did think it was a good point to strive for low gluten ancient grains like quinoa and buckwheat. We love almost all grains but I would be than happy to trade in some brown rice for quinoa here and there.
The differences I’ve seen so far have been somewhat minimal. I don’t really feel much change in energy or anything. Although I was already eating a reduced calorie diet that focused on clean eating. But it wasn’t as strict as veganism. I do note that I have to avoid dairy now. If I have dairy it really affects me. For the one time I lapsed and had some meat I felt no difference except for the fact that I felt I’d cheated, lol. In time depending on our results we may go somewhere in the middle with eating high vegetable and legume diets with a mixture of healthy and natural grains. Perhaps some grass fed meats, but I think we will avoid dairy for the rest of our lives. My wife’s severe allergies nearly disappeared after going off dairy and everytime any amount creeps back in her allergies will flare up. We do take multivitamin supplements and a vitamin b complex to help offset any deficiencies in our diet but we try to get everything we can naturally.
I will weigh in on the fact that I think the Paleo idea that eating grains or legumes is unnatural as completely asinine. People and civilizations evolve all the time. Just because we weren’t fully aware of grains and legumes early on doesn’t mean they aren’t a good nutritional source. Chances are some ancient people depending on their location ate the occasional grain or legume. But initially they just weren’t eaten because people didn’t know they could. So basically Paleo enthusiasts use ancient ignorance as a foundation for fact. Which is a complete failure. Once again it all comes back to balance. If you’re avoiding high gluten and synthetic meats as a vegan and as a Paleo you’re eating a highly plant based diet with clean meats in there either one is probably fine.
Phil, I have noticed terrible problems with dairy so I avoid it too. I was having terrible chronic back problems over a course of 8 years. Some days were so bad that I could barely get out of bed and often times I was in tears. I hurt all over especially my back. I couldn’t even bend down to empty the dishwasher. Once I stopped eating dairy, in three days I noticed a huge change. My back stopped hurting me. It’s been a year since I’ve been off dairy, but I have experimented with it, and every time I have dairy, my lower back pain comes right back, and I suffer for about two or three days. Cheese is the worst because of all the concentrated casein in it. If I have pizza, the next day is awful. So for me, dairy is best avoided.
Controversy just loves dichotomy. Discerning folks are still turned off by the fundamentalist, evangelical approach. No I don’t want to join your cult. I did at least appreciate the moderators attempt at a more reasoned analysis. But “Paleo vs. Vegan” doesn’t get to the real issues any more than Republicans vs. Democrats do. This really does have the makings of a really bad reality show. Personally, I am still waiting for someone to explain how the baby got thrown out with the bath water in the first place when it comes to non-industrialized, toxic-minimized farm produced food. Why don’t you ever hear these zealots arguing about heirloom, sprouted, fermented, raw and probiotic foods for example? At least the moderators mentioned traditional and ancient grains. I mean, did I miss a “Paleo Diet” update from Cordain and Wolf based on the latest science? I just wish someone, anyone would show me the scientific facts that Paleo will work today without needing science to apply it and that it will be truly sustainable for everyone. But Paleo folks seem too busy talking out both sides of their mouth embracing society and its’ production when its convenient and attacking it when it when they think it makes them look like more of a man (and woman). And don’t give me any of that “Modern Paleo” stupidity. Oh that’s right, the “Paleo” folks have the baby. Oxymorons!
Interesting points. I have been researching this the last couple years. Not sure what to believe. The people I know that developed type 2 diabetes are the biggest meat eaters I know. I have tried both sides and honestly feel best when I consume mostly plants with a a small amount of animal protein(dairy, eggs or meat). Actual studies show the longest living are the vegetarians(not vegan) and fish eaters. So as usual the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
I’ll have to agree with you Sam. I feel better consuming mostly plants and some animal products. Unfortunately with me, I have a terrible time with dairy. I’m not lactose intolerant, but I’ve noticed that every time I eat it especially cheese, my joints hurt (especially my lower back). I may have a problem with the casein in it, and I know cheese is a concentrated form of casein. I think you’re right about the truth lies in the middle.
Ive seen countless vegans turn paleo after health issues stemming from vegan diet. Any paleo turned vegans exist?
Yes. I am one of them.
Veganism is a pretty extreme diet. Weston Price found no vegan cultures. Even the more ascetic plant-based diets such as ayurveda use animal foods.
I think it is possible to be a paleo-vegetarian if a person ate eggs and cheese (found liberally in the stomachs of young hoofstock).
As another commenter pointed out, veganism is an ethic more than a diet, and as such has aims that are beyond (perhaps detrimental to) nutrition.
Echoing my exact thoughts.
I can’t help but wonder if those vegans were eating a highly processed diet with tons of fake soy meat. That would make anybody sick.
I was vegan for about two years after being vegetarian for three. I drank soy milk, ate soy nuts, loved soy ice cream, and often incorporated soy crumbles into my dinner. (Of course, I did not eat all of this every day. This is just to illustrate what my overall diet/shopping cart looked like.) Because soy mimics estrogen, my boobs got huge (32A bra size to 32C) and I started to pack on the pounds. My mood swings were just terrible. My poor husband–luckily, he’s forgiven me for my volatility back then. I realized I had to stop when I added 30 pounds in one year. When I went back to a more balanced vegetarian diet and incorporated free range eggs, I lost weight and my moods subsided. I’m now a paleo-veg, and yes, it is possible. As many have mentioned above, paleos and vegans have the same ideology and probably share more similarities than they think. They both share the idea that humans need to get back to nature.
Just another tidbit to throw in for my vegan brothers and sisters arguing that beef causes deforestation…One of the primary growers of soy beans is Brazil. Soy farms there destroy roughly the same amount of rainforest as beef. I know because I’m a geographer and frequently read satellite imagery.
Men need to avoid soy as well. It can do to us what it did to you.
Would like to see here a comparison of the amount of water required to raise livestock next to amount needed for soybeans. There is more to this than just square footage. Also, how many are fed on an acre of soybeans compared to those that can be fed from the cattle produced on an acre. Also, you can grow a crop every year. Your cattle aren’t ready in one year are they?
Paul,
Hey! I’m on your side. Yes, I agree that cattle ranching’s use of water is atrocious (depends on where you are really, or if you’re talking about feedlots or open grazing). Yes, I agree that you can feed more people with vegetable product than with beef. However, I do not agree with the benefits of soy. I do not agree that it is an “environmentally sustainable” product (i.e. Brazil). I think women need to be very cautious about consuming soy. I was responding to the previous poster’s question on how vegetarians (moi) and vegans (I’m guessing you) are affected physically by soy products. Jeez. You’re only adding to the angry vegan stereotype, honey. Maybe consuming too many soybean, mood-swing-inducing products? Mwah!
I would love to know that too.
You can get some of the components of protein (the amino acids) from legumes, seeds and grain, but meat and fish contain all the essential amino acids. The amino acids in meat/fish are also in a form that is very easy for most people to digest. Many people find grains and legumes (which contain digestive inhibitors) quite hard to digest. Note too how little meat you actually need to get protein – 4 oz of beef provides 30 grams protein; salmon 25 grams; tofu 8 grams.
How DO vegans get enough amino acids without eating their body weight soy?
Sorry, but that was amazingly ignorant. Maybe you were exaggerating, but , it’s a common misconception. We only need 40 grams of protein(amino acids) a day. I get 30g from my fruit-based diet. When I ate grain and beans, I got 80g.
Paleo is nothing but trendy, hokey-hipster BS that isn’t based on ANY science. Just imaginative speculation of a brief and turbulent period of human history where our life expectancy was TWENTY FIVE YEARS OLD. “Ohhhh you guys are SUCH WARRIOR HUNTERS!! You simply must consume “COMPLETE” protein in the form of raw calves liver and hyped-up organo-concious farm meats.” You obviously don’t have a clue about what the human body really needs. It’s a diet based on armchair anthropology, ego,some shallow thinking, and a whole lot of science ignoring.
You don’t need animal protein, FACT. I’m a 200lb athletic male with low body fat and I’ve been thriving for over 5 years. Not only do you not need it, but there are numerous huge, recent, reputable studies that show how it is directly and substantially liked to all cause mortality. The same goes for animal based fat. It’s all garbage with absolutely no advantages to consuming it, only drawbacks. The only exception being eating it to prevent starving.
All scientific evidence points towards a whole foods, plant-based diet being the most optimal for human health. If you aren’t aware of this fact, then I suggest you do some actual honest objective research and stop kidding yourselves. Go on pubmed, watch vids on nutritionfacts.org and try to contradict them. Or just keep parroting lame fake nutrition advice you overheard 7 years ago, and watching undergroundwellness.com. You all would rather cover your ears and pretend you cant hear anything just so you can keep eating your stupid cheeseburgers? It’s your funeral, literally.
Gather-Hunter existence was not a ‘brief turbulent’ period. On the contrary domesticated /agriculture based existence has been far more brief and turbulent. Only 10,000 years, opposed to 1.8 million years. Look at the damage we’ve caused the planet and each other in this mere blimp.
Coprolites (preserved human feces) are an exceptional source of information about our prehistoric ancestors. They provide ideal references about human diet because they are the nondigestible remains of eaten foods. They contain such dietary evidence as the scales, bones, feathers, and hair traces from small animals and coarse fibers, seeds, and leaves of consumed plants. For these reasons, scientists are using coprolites to reconstruct the nutritional merits and overall health of ancient cultures.
Kristin Sobolik, an anthropologist at the University of Maine, specializes in examining the coprolites of foraging groups who lived in the arid regions of the American Southwest during the last 10,000 years. She has found that about 75 percent of the calories eaten by ancient foragers were in the form of carbohydrates derived from nutritious, high-fiber plants. The richly varied food of these ancient foragers included the roasted basal portions of thick, pulpy leaves of sotol and agave; cactus pads and flowers; sunflower seeds, ground mesquite, and cactus seeds; acorns, walnuts, and pecans; and persimmons, grapes, blackberries, and wild onions. These ancient foragers balanced their high-carbohydrate diet with an intake of about 10–20 percent protein, obtained mostly from mice, pack rats, fish, freshwater clams, lizards, caterpillars, grasshoppers, birds and their eggs, and, when lucky, rabbits and deer.
In most cases, foraging cultures ate the “perfect” human diet. We know this because of the findings reported by anthropologists who have spent a career examining human coprolites. Karl Reinhard, of the University of Nebraska, is a coprolite expert who specializes in the study of intestinal parasites. He notes how debilitating and potentially fatal intestinal parasites can be, especially when they infect a person who is already weakened by anemia, famine, or prolonged malnutrition. His examination of hundreds of coprolites from sites in the American Southwest indicates that preagricultural hunting and gathering populations were very healthy and almost totally free of internal parasitic infections. Once those groups turned to farming, however, they became anemic and heavily infected. High population densities, poor sanitation, and the compactness of living spaces in farming villages, such as pueblos, helped increase both the rate of infection and the variety of infecting parasites, which include pinworms, tapeworms, and thorny-headed worms.
Go insects! These findings are much closer to what I imagined a true paleolithic diet to be… and adding the never-ending search for food to the list of activities… a very active creature was the human living under these circumstances… The true Paleolithic Sources of protein: mice, pack rats, fish, freshwater clams, lizards, caterpillars, grasshoppers, birds and their eggs, and, when lucky, rabbits and deer. I can see the books flying off the shelf!
I think both sides are a little daffy.. My Mom is 91 and still going very strong, a little soreness in her knees but still drives and very healthy. She is French and eats more of a Mediterranean Diet. She eats meats and fish, cheese and lots of salads .. I say eat what you like in moderation and get some exercise everyday and live a happy life without leaving off foods that you enjoy…
Interesting article. This is something that I’ve been debating by myself for last 2 years or so as well. For people criticizing Dr. McDougall about the grains, please watch his presentation (on youtube) or his book the Starch Solution. I was so convinced (and btw, I listen to podcasts like Balanced Bites and etc.)
And also, many people criticize about being “long term vegan” or wtvr; I’d like to see some “long term paleo” and the effects of high fat diet as well. Just to be clear, I’m not criticizing anyone. I am just very interested in health & wellness and the effects of a certain diet.
Grain intolerances or agitations would be expected in a small number of population and its increase is due to lack of probiotics and other healthy bacteria which are the source for b12 and other nutrients. Saying the science proves meat diet is normal is error as humans are designed for plant diet. All nutritional and medicinal resources can be acquired from plants which does not get researched or promoted as it is not profitable and destructive…
I don’t think either side disagrees with the fact that humans thrive on a heavy plant-filled diet. The debate seems to come down more to whether meat should be included, and grain/legumes excluded (paleo) or meat and animal products excluded while grains/legumes included (vegan). I have found the research that shows thousands of years of evidence that hunter/gatherers ate meat, and not grain, and were disease and cavity free (the short life span was not because of disease) to be the reason I went paleo and am in the best health of my life. I find it odd saying that grain is natural in the diet, although many humans can not digest it, or have terrible reactions to it, and blaming that fact on something other than the grain. We shouldn’t have to eat something extra (like probiotics) just to allow us to digest something else that we are eating.
For the comments about us evolving and learning to use tools. Yes,we learned how to make fire to cook meat, and tools to prepare grain, but how many, many years ago? What about our brains evolving since then? Has this not allowed us to “think” our way to a cleaner diet? One that does not include suffering? Or should I just hunt your ass down and fry me some burgers because you seem to graze far better than than the farm animals you eat!
Just because spinach doesn’t have a face doesn’t mean it was any less alive when you ripped it out of the ground than the calf you kill for veal. You have to kill to live. More precisely, you have to consume something that is/was alive to get energy from it. Many farm raised animals are treated poorly and that should be changed. But for those farms that treat animals humanely, there shouldn’t be any moral issue. If you defend life, defend all of it. Not just the side you sympathize with. Remember that the next time you swat a fly away from you salad.
This is a funny argument. Spinach does not have a nervous system. Animals do and that does make all the difference. I’m sure you wouldn’t want to roast your pet dog or cat on the grill. Why?
If it came down to either me or my dog, that dog would be steak. We are not herbivors, we are omnivors. We have canine teeth and a taste for flesh therefore we eat it.
We evolved over 2 million years to eat whatever we could to survive. We still are programmed to do that. This is why we have so many weight problems. We are drawn to rich foods that will pack on fat for storage during times of famine. We have only been farming for 10,000 years. This is not enough time to evolve our digestive system to handle the way we eat today. Not compared to the 2 million that got us here.
So is it only you and the chicken left in the world now? If yes, you are welcome to have meat. Since we all know there is no scarcity of plant based foods, that means we don’t need any bloodshed to get the energy we need.
We do not have acidic salivas like carnivores. So meat can only get digested in our stomachs (partially) using the stomach acids we produce; and has a long way to go before excretion. That is why all you pork eating folks have to deal with detoxification and colon cleansing while we vegans can laugh at the sight of you going thru it.
@Jack and some others commenting on this article: I’d like to know exactly how it is that we have so much concrete evidence related to what was going on in the world over 2 million years ago. No current technology in existence today is effective enough to give us such so-called “proof”. I’d like to add that because there are still tribal populations in existence to this day, there is definitely a good possibility that civilization existed alongside more primitive peoples thousands of years ago, just like now, only in smaller numbers – after all, we have no idea how the pyramids came into existence, and there are many mysteries from our past that we only speculate on based on scientific theories.
We have canine teeth (pathetic ones in comparison to most omnivores, but canines nonetheless) and front-facing eyes, which indicate that we are likely designed to be omnivorous. However, I believe that there are many factors to take into account when considering which diet is optimal for who. Perhaps we’re just very adaptable and can thrive on many different types of diets. I personally believe that setting out specific dietary plans for everyone to follow is dangerous. From my own experience, a diet that is high in whole foods with minimal processing is best. I consume small to moderate portions of meat, large portions of vegetables/fruits, and cultured dairy foods such as kefir. I don’t shy away from grains, but I try to soak/ferment/sprout most that I eat. The same goes for nuts and seeds. I have removed modern wheat, refined sugars, cow’s milk (unless cultured or butter), refined fats, food additives and soy from my diet, but I’m not paranoid either. I think it may be a good idea to consume occasional culprit foods (unless severely allergic) to prevent food intolerances, sort of like homeopathic medicine but in the form of food. Maybe ths makes little or no sense to some of you, but it has worked for me, and my health has improved drastically since making these dietary changes.
I guess my point is that there’s really no diet or lifestyle in existence that is effective for everyone. We should learn to trust our bodies rather than jumping on the latest dietary bandwagons.
Ugh just stop! As several people have said the ultimate goal of both sides is for people to eat whole foods. All this tit for tat is what turns people who are completely unhealthy off from both groups. If one chooses to be vegetarian/vegan or paleo is a personal choice as long as they have the knowledge or are striving not to eat a diet of processed foods. Why does anyone have to choose sides?
“As several people have said the ultimate goal of both sides is for people to eat whole foods. ” Not true. Ethical vegans do exist. Also, not all vegans with health concerns oppose all processed foods… including meat analogs.
nothing beats the Warrior Diet!
I’ve been strictly vegetarian and partly vegan for three months now and have done a lot of research on the benefits, health and otherwise. I have recently started researching the paleo diet(s). I have come up with one question that I am very curious about. When comparing health-wise only, which is worse for you, grain-fed factory farmed meat or whole grains and legumes such as quinoa and lentils? I say this because many people I’ve spoken to that are trying to follow the paleo diet do not stay strict to buying local, grass fed, wild caught meats for various reasons (too expensive, too hard to find). If one cannot obtain these types of meats (which from the research i’ve done is crucial) is it better or worse to substitute with high protein grains and legumes?
There’s really not a big difference between eating grain, and grain-fed meat. Both have a lot of negatives when it comes to your health. That being said, if I HAD to choose, I would probably choose grain-fed meat.
And when that grain fed meat wont push thru your intestines and you need a colon cleanse, let us vegans know, we’ll send you some fiber.
I think the grains may be better than the factory fed meat to be honest. This coming from a pretty hard core paleo follower. The animals are sick and you are eating those toxins in their body.
On the other hand, if you are not tolerant to grains you are probably better off eating the factory meat. I know if I ate more grains I would be huge. If I eat any more than 100 grams of carbs per day I gain weight faster than you could imagine.
Very true.
I’m disappointed that the 80-10-10 version of the vegan diet was not represented here at all. I’ve been a Paleo fan for quite a while now, but after researching the principles of 80-10-10, I have become very disjointed in my thinking. Forget the whole Durianrider thing and you have a diet that I personally can’t find fault in, once you understand the inner workings of it, it is hard to deny the very strong argument about what we as humans are naturally drawn to eat, before processing, seasoning, butchering, dyeing, packaging and so on. Put a live chicken, pig, cow, pile of untouched grain like wheat, pile of untouched beans still hard as nature provides, and a pile of ripe peaches in front of a hungry person with no tools and what is that person naturally drawn to eat? It seems pretty obvious to me and since science is still so young and compartmentalized I find it very difficult to argue with that logic. Anyways that’s just my two cents. Just like to mention that I believe everyone in both fields are, for the most part genuine in their desire to help people and I hope for human healths sake that the correct answer is in the near future. Dean
But that’s what makes us homo sapiens…tools. We developed tools. We developed the ability to use fire to cook meats and other foods to be more edible. Eat a lot of veggies, some fruits, some nuts/seeds, and some animal flesh. I have yet to meet anyone that actually eats that way that has any health issues at all. The paleo problem is compliance or frankenfoods. Because you restrict so much, its harder to stay on it. When that becomes an issue, people start trying to find paleo substitutes. Neither are a good thing. Veganism has this built in. Yes you can have refined sugar…yes you can have pizza (with fake cheese)…the substitutions for meat are endless and generally fit into veganism. The only thing different between a good paleo diet and a good vegan diet is meat.
“The only thing different between a good paleo diet and a good vegan diet is meat.” Nope. Legumes, grains, potatoes, and even fruits make for points of difference. Legumes and grains especially make for an interesting difference, since there does exist evidence that grains and legumes did get eaten before the agricultural revolution. See this study: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440304001694, and the links at the Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_diet.
Potatoes and fruit are both acceptable in the paleo diet. It is encouraged to moderate them if you are looking for weight loss but otherwise you can fill your boots.
Grains and legumes WERE eaten. But not the processed ones we eat today.
People have been drinking beer for years too. That is a processed grain. Doesn’t mean its good for you!
I’m an 18-year-old vegetarian, and I’ve wanted to go vegan for awhile. However, my parents and my doctor continually nix that idea, because they worry that I won’t get enough calcium. How do vegans make sure that they’re getting enough of the nutrients in their diet that we usually get from dairy?
I am not a health professional and my understanding from my looking into the matter is what is biological available to the body. Just passing something through the digestive system does not automatically make it available to the body. We vegans get calcium and other nutrients/minerals from the same source as the cows, namely from the plant that uptakes those minerals from the earth. The cow may concentrate minerals for their baby food (milk) but does not manufacture it. Thus the importance of organic vegetables grown on rich soils rather than depleted soils. An often overlooked aspect is hanging on to the minerals you have. Diary and meat is acidic and the body will lose minerals such as calcium in trying to buffer the effects of acid forming foods. Osteoporosis appears to more an issue with acid forming food than any lack of calcium in the diet.
Just as others have suggested eat your greens. The easiest way to do this is make a tasty green smoothie everyday. There are plenty of recipes online. Many doctors still believe that dairy products are the only way to get calcium when in reality it weakens your bones. Don’t let milk commercials brainwash you into thinking otherwise as they want to make money. It is not natural for humans to consume milk from another species and no species drinks milk past infancy. I have been vegan for 2 years and raw vegan for 1 year and am in the best health of my life. Many doctors are now being educated on the benefits plant based diets. A Green smoothie a day will do wonders!
Don’t assume that because some people insist that we aren’t designed to consume dairy that it’s the truth. You could say the same thing about so many foods. In nature, you don’t see animals eating olive or coconut oil, marinated meats, cooked or cultured foods, and so on, but these foods are regularly consumed by humans, and have been considered to be healthy for a long time. I do believe that it’s all about quality. Many people complain that dairy is horrible, because they are used to eating pasteurized/homogenized milk rather than raw or cultured/fermented dairy. When the goodness of milk is stripped or altered by excess processing, it’s rendered useless in the body. Granted, some people have dairy allergies, usually in the form of lactose intolerance, but often times these same people can handle yogurt/kefir, etc. with no issues at all. Some people will claim that no food that requires such preparation (ie fermenting, culturing, soaking, etc.) should be eaten, but that sounds very much like “devolution” to me…we have the brains we do for a reason, and there’s no need to think like so-called “cavemen”, who would’ve had very little insight on such matters. If a food is beneficial to us, we should embrace ways of making that food more bioavailable rather than slagging it because our ancestors didn’t have the knowledge to properly utilize it. It seems like everywhere you go, someone is telling you what you should and shouldn’t eat. The controversy is staggering. I think people are missing the point, which is to trust your body, and consume foods that are wholesome. If dairy is an issue for you, you can easily omit it, and derive your calcium sources from sea vegetables, nuts, seeds and green vegetables. But nobody should assume that they know what is and isn’t good for everyone on the planet (aside from the obvious poisons like cola and nitrates).
Hi Chantelle,
You can consult with an integrative nutritionist to get the full list, but rest assured there are many vegan sources of calcium, including broccoli, dark leafy greens, blackstrap molasses, tempeh, tahini, almonds and many types of beans.
–Anjula Razdan, Senior Editor, Health and Nutrition
Dark leafy greens include collard greens, mustard greens, kale, bok choy, and turnip greens. Okra can make for another calcium source, dried figs, as well as soymilk fortified with calcium. Spinach and swiss chard, though good foods, have too many oxalates in them with inhibit absorption of calcium.
I have a problem with ANY diet that almost exclusively removes a whole food ground -
Vegans have their issues and need to take supplements to maintain overall help (B complex)
Paelo has it’s own issues as well. Since we don’t actually have to hunt and gather personally to survive, and we have access to healthy food whenever we want it – most can eat 3 squares a day etc, I don’t think diet is the best choice either. The human body has evolved since the days of cave men – even now though out the world people/cultures may have different organ sizes – for example the Inuit people have different sized organs because of their diet.
I tell all my clients the key to a good healthy diet is whole foods – whether meats, vegetables, grains – WHATEVER your culture/religion/health permits – the more the food is unprocessed the better
Chlorella and Nutritional yeast for B vits. You may not like it, but they’re both fantastic whole foods.
Great information from both sides. Avoiding processed food seems to work best for both side. Its tough for most people to give up pizza, meat, and chocolate – LOL. I like the idea of trying to find out what works best for the person, since we have different lifestyles backgrounds etc… Based on my 20 years experience in the health and fitness field; you will have to drink a lot of water on the a Paleo diet or you may get really bad breath. On a Vegan diet their can be vitamin and mineral deficits unless you get tested etc… With limited time in the day and a family I give credit to anyone who takes the time to give their family healthy food that didn’t come frozen, in a box or fast food.
Who here truly believes wild-caught, grass-fed meat is sustainable for everyone in America, let alone the world. Get real. I think the paleo fans should have to hunt mammoth & wild boar then. And they should really spend all day hunting-gathering too. Most people are not body builders and will develop heart disease on this type of diet.
Read up on what causes heart disease. It isn’t meat or fat. It’s insulin. Both are doing the same thing in reality….reducing elevated levels of insulin. While I think both diets have merit, Paleo is something that is more inclusive to what humans did eat. You have incisors for a reason and it wasn’t just meant to shear carrot sticks.
There is no evidence to suggest you would develop heart disease on a Paeleo diet. Animal fat doesn’t cause heart disease. You being fat is the cause of heart disease. Eating meat in the right amounts has a positive effect on the heart, not negative.
No evidence!? Ever hear of “Prevent & Reverse Heart Disease”, or how about “The China Study”?
The China Study has been debunked. You might try offering up a valid source for this argument.
Inflammation is a strong culprit in heart disease, which is not caused by eating natural saturated fats or animal proteins.
The china study has never been validly debunked…ever. It is an extremely valid piece of peer reviewed science. You must still think the world is flat. Animal protein and animal fat are both horrible for you, and there are literally buckets of studies other than “the china study” that clearly show that causation. You just haven’t done a lick of honest, objective research. Like most people. You’re talking out of your behind so you can rationalize clinging to your bacon and just doing what everyone else does and not rock the boat.
Any piece if research can be “debunked” if people search hard enough, including the rediculous pre-agriculture nonsense…was there anyone actually present who can “prove” what early humans ate? It certainly wasn’t domesticated cattle & genetically modified hogs or chickens.
I think that the human body is an efficient enough machine, that if it NEEDS something it will express that in one way or another. I have tried both low carb(not true paleo, but in retrospect it was pretty close) and a mostly vegan diet. The most blatantly obvious difference in my experiences are the cravings. While doing the low carb thing every waking moment was spent with a tearing desire for carbs, and with a doughnut shop on every corner in the Dallas area, I felt like I was the brunt of some sick joke. While on a vegan diet, the cravings are…..nonexistent. I’m not saying that I don’t smell barbecue and think “Self, that smells really good”, but once the aroma is gone so too is my slight desire for a ribeye. The way I look at it is if my body actually needed me to consume meat to survive it would let that fact be known.
I will attest to the cosmetic effectiveness of a low carb diet though it will shred you up, and it will do it in a very short period of time.
People on both sides of this debate have one thing in common, they are all trying to better themselves through improvements in their diet; so to that I would like to commend anyone on either side. When it comes down to my opinion on which diet is more effective by way of feeling great and being truly healthy Vegan gets my vote.
Who’s going to be the first to pounce on my opinion???
The cravings are not a good indicator that something is good for you. If you have some crack you will probably crave for some more crack. Is that your body telling you that it is good for you?
Paleo isn’t necessarily low carb. I eat a pretty typical Paleo diet, and get a number of carbs through sweet potatoes, fruits, nuts, and other vegetation. Paleo places a significantly higher importance on food quality than the typical low carb diet as well. Try adding some non grain and dairy carbs with the low carb diet you tried, and I bet the carb cravings would go away.
Thanks for the input
I share about my experience transitioning to a paleo diet from years of veganism here:
http://www.my-healthy-eating-secrets.com/paleo-diet.html
The whole vegan vs paleo thing is getting pretty frustrating. The terms vegan and paleo mean different things to different people and there are unhealthy & healthy ways to eat within each approach.
Ultimately, it feels like the high grain people are out of touch and diets like the Thrive diet represent a more refined version of the Vegan diet that considers proteins, removing grains and is actually pretty Paleo.
I have experience in the MS community where the vegan and paleo diets are two competing areas and this competition helps no one.
The low fat, high grain vegan approach seems just dated with all the work being done and surely a higher (good) fat, non processed, high vegetable and moderate amount of plant protein is better but still, if you are strict vegan, where are you getting your omega 3′s, B vitamins etc from?
To me, I try to eat lots of vegetables, like tons, and some fruit, but it also seems that to get B Vitamins, to get Omega’s we need to eat fish and meat. You don’t need to eat tons of meat to be Paleo and we have many fish and meat free meals but for me, any perfect diet is one that is sustainable without supplements (even though we take them) and the vegan diet falls down there.
It is more important to find the science and the common ground and look at what is sustainable for the world as a whole and find the ultimate diet that not only takes our health into account, but the ethics that all so often way to heavy on the vegan side of the argument (it seems often to be vegan ethics vs paleo science).
What, as a non scientist, I don’t understand, is how some people / groups claim there is too much anti grain science to ignore, and other groups just seem to ignore it.
Another note: Brendon Brazier is anti grain vegan, whilst McDougal is pro grain vegan so I don’t even see how these two wildly different diets can be grouped together in such a discussion.
I would really class us as Paleo Whole Food Eaters. We eat wild caught fish and grass fed meats but focus on vegetables, salads, raw foods, smoothies etc and we eat a whole bunch of the high nutrient vegan type foods from the Brendan Brazier Thrive diet book.
The truth is somewhere in the middle but it would certainly, from a health perspective, seem to lie closer to the clean ‘paleo’ diets as advocated by Robb Wolf and Co. and the paleo’ish vegan diets advocated by Brendan Brazier. The grain heavy diets advocated by Dean Ornish and McDougal to me, seem way out of date.
Kris Carr is mixing up a therapeutic diet (vegan diet used for her cancer) with a long term healthy diet (omnivorous diet, what you eat to thrive all through your life). Of course all food should be of the best quality: local, pasture raised, organic, fresh, cooked with low heat, etc.
“With ill health, the optimal diet often changes. Sick people often have to tweak their diet, and the nature of the change varies with the nature of the pathology.” – Paul Jaminet PhD
“There is no one diet that is perfect for everyone, but that is mainly because not everyone is healthy.” – Paul Jaminet PhD
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/perfect-health-diet/201201/is-there-perfect-diet
For anyone not yet vegan or paleo I really hope your take home message is this -> a diet made of Real Food is best for your health.
As for the environmental stuff it’s true that much deforestation was done to produce food for animals, we’ve been doing that since before we domesticated animals, but that doesn’t mean that agriculture isn’t blamefree and it doesn’t mean that eating meat here and now causes further deforestation. I don’t contribute to the destruction of rainforests or prairies because I buy local meat (I live in the UK) that has grazed on land that is very difficult to grow crops on. I have in the past been vegetarian and always felt guilty at the distances my food had to travel. Eating a paleo based diet I could get nearly all my food from probably a 100 mile radius of my home, eating vegan would require eating food from all over the world.
Other people, in other parts of the world, will have different access to different foods. I strongly believe that the evidence points to eating real foods as being best for our health and better for the planet.
(NB I do not count wheat as a Real Food)
Nice article- it is always nice to see this “debate” covered from both sides. Although I follow a Paleo template it would be nice if the paleos and vegans could all agree that we all promote real food and then just let everyone fill out their diet the way they see fit. There’s plenty of plants and animals to go around…
quiet interesting …. I say “Eat What You Want and Die Like a Man”
This article unfortunately misses the point. It’s not about vegans vs. Paleo, it’s about what human beings have evolved to eat in order to maximize health. And that is NOT a vegan diet – not even close. If fact, if all a vegan ate WAS plants (no processed foods, no supplements) – only plant matter that could be gathered in the plains/forest, they’d all die within a year or less. So how healthy is the diet really? Please people.
The only people who benefit from a vegan diet in our society are those who are eating almost all their food in the form of processed, manufactured, additive-ridden foods. It’s not the vegan diet per se that is so healthful. If I stop smoking and start chewing gum and after a time my chronic bronchitis goes away, it wasn’t the gum that cured me.
Vegans believe that their diet is superior ignoring what science has to say on the matter. There is not a shred of physical evidence that a vegan diet is the most healthful and scores of research that indicate that a diet high in fat, adequate in complete proteins (animal based) and low in carbohydrate is superior for overall health. And you don’t need any vegetation at all if one eats the entire animal – organs, etc.
The experts who state that the vegan diet is the most healthful diet for humans are being horribly irresponsible and should be hung up by their Buster Browns. Experts doctors like John McDougall, Michael Greger, Joel Fuhrman, Caldwell Esselstyn, Dean Ornish and others of their ilk, grossly misrepresent the benefits of a vegan diet compared to a paleo diet and continue to misinform millions of people.
For shame doctors, for shame. Enough is enough. Ditch your personal agendas and start telling people the truth. I challenge all vegan doctors to produce a single study which indicates that a vegan diet is superior to a Paleo, high fat, low carb diet.
Remember that many of these doctors if not all used this diet to help their patients recover from diseases. Can’t see how that’s bad.
Hear Hear. Well said, Fred Hahn.
“There is not a shred of physical evidence that a vegan diet is the most healthful and scores of research that indicate that a diet high in fat, adequate in complete proteins (animal based) and low in carbohydrate is superior for overall health.
…
For shame doctors, for shame. Enough is enough. Ditch your personal agendas and start telling people the truth. I challenge all vegan doctors to produce a single study which indicates that a vegan diet is superior to a Paleo, high fat, low carb diet.”
Low carb plant based diet beats animal based one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iojFtL4jMao&feature=BFa&list=PL53AA35449C7DD652&lf=plpp_video#t=4m59s
LS – nothing in that video supports a vegan diet as healthful nor does it refute what I said above. Find and show me a controlled study that shows a vegan diet is superior to a high fat, paleo diet on blood markers for inflammation, diabetes, obesity, etc.
And if you are indeed Dr. Greger, remember that I have challenged and defeated you before on this issue on your own discussion board (which you kicked me off of because you could not defend your vegan agenda).
And likewise, I’d like to see an honest, long term study that proves that the “paleo” diet is good for people in the long run. I can see the benefits of it for the short term (it closely resembles the anti-candida diet) and it’s likely that the benefits that world experience initially are due to yeast kill-off. However, I find it difficult to believe that such a diet can be good when practiced over several years or decades. Often times, food intolerances are due to candida overgrowth, which disrupts the entire system. I think that this a common reason why some people develop intolerances to grains and dairy, and that the blame shouldn’t be placed on these foods themselves. Candidiasis is caused by a number of factors, including stress, overconsumption of processed foods, antibiotics, and environmental factors. In this way, the paleo diet is great, as it discourages processed, medicated foods. Of course, vegetarianism should promote the same principles, and we can’t assume that all vegans/vegetarians are careless enough to eat the soy-based prepackaged junk in the trendy health food aisles of big-chain supermarkets. unfortunately, there are plenty of idiots in both the vegan and paleo communities who do this and make the rest of them look bad.
I find the debate between paleo and vegan incredibly frustrating. They are the two diets that are most responsible for advocating the consumption of unprocessed foods, but they are at each others throats about their differences. If half the world went paleo, and half the world went vegan, the whole world would be much healthier than we are today.
If half the world went paleo we would need another few planets to feed it (all that grass fed beef y’know).
I agree with you. I think we should be working together. I would love to see this panel of people debate a panel from the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics and some mainstream “health gurus” like Dr. Oz, JIllian Michaels, etc. People more interested in plugging “healthy” products then whole foods.
Ohh, I would SO love to see that debate. I’d even pay to watch!
I just had to laugh at “Dr.” McDougall’s comment that “grains are the most important nutritional component of humans….” Really? What did they eat before 10,000 years ago? How could anyone consume a plant based diet during the Ice Age? The fact that there are no indigenous vegan cultures should tell you it’s frankly a manmade invention bordering on a religion. And those Egyptians that supposedly “thrived” on wheat had diabetes, cancer & heart disease. I would also like to know how “fruit is the most ideal food for human beings”? How much fruit can you grow and eat in cold climates and winter months?
This Egyptian misinformation is frequently cited. The mummies that have been available for study were royalty and consequently had diets high in meat and fat. The poor folks didn’t eat that way and they didn’t die of those diseases.
People did eat grains before 10,000 years ago. The Wikipedia entry on the Paleolithic Diet indicates this: “Evidence suggests the diet of Stone Age humans did include, in some form, the refined starches and grains that are excluded from the Paleolithic diet. There is evidence that Paleolithic societies were processing cereals for food use at least as early as 23,000[92][93] or 30,000 years ago,[94] and possibly as early as 105,000[95] or 200,000 years ago.[96]“
Really? Wikipedia is your go-to source for scholarly information?
couldn’t have said it better myself, I laughed out loud at that!
that statement is beyond ridiculous. And this man is a doctor!
The take home message is to eat REAL food
As soon as you cut out refined, processd fake food from your diet you wI’ll be on your way towards optimal health.
Xxoo
I agree the main message is to eat real food! People would benefit from eliminating all processed foods. Eat the fruits and veggies that are currently in season and if you choose to eat meat then it should be grass fed or wild-caught. I also think there are different body types and some do better with a more paleo diet and some more vegetarian. You have to find what works for you. I personally lean mostly to vegetarian diet but I also know when I need more protein and will eat sustainable fish.
You need protein and complete proteins everyday to enjoy optimal health. If you eat too little, your body eats its own tissues for what it is lacking in the diet.
I wish you guys would have asked Natalia Rose for her opinion. She is probably the most educated person when it comes to nutrition. While the diet she recommends is mostly vegan, she says that high quality animal products (such as raw organic goat cheese and fish) are some of the items that have kept her health journey on track for so long. And while fruit is the most ideal food for human beings, for many women who have an over-yeasted system, fruit can actually stall their weight-loss and keep them from experiencing vitality until their body is much cleaner.
“And while fruit is the most ideal food for human beings..”
Say what Mary Beth? Where in the world are you getting this from?
For both diets I see a common traits that I know to be best for optimal health and performance.
First and most important wich makes these diets work in the first place is greens!
If a vegan or vegararian diet or even paleo is sub optimal, it’s ussally the green laking. Forget the fruit, it’s not half as important as you r greens.
Fat, the good kind, still a big nono in Veganland, is the most important reason these diets fail! Fat is absolutly important! Add the fat, and experience the difference, if that is not enough, add a little bit of meat, fish or eggs to your diet, and your likly to thrive!
Paleo is 80% greens, nuts and seeds a a little bit of meat/ fish.
Both sides should also learn to eat with moderation, this is the most healthiest thing you can do shortterm.